So business as usual?

Period?

Greece's riot police are far more restrained than ours. Molotov cocktails and all they do is crowd dispersal.

We go riding the horse and everyone dissapears? I left you guys in charge and see what happens? You all kiss off your responsibilities. Bad HCN No biscuit for you!

Rob Dawg wrote:

Greece's riot police are far more restrained than ours. Molotov cocktails and all they do is crowd dispersal.

Can't afford drones - not until the next dispersal.

Not stay in the government?

Isn't that a reward, not a punishment?

Why have a government at all then? Wouldn't a single autotechnocrat (asshat) be so much easier?

CR wrote:

Political turmoil deepened here Friday as Prime Minister Lucas Papademos threatened to eject from his fragile interim coalition government any ministers who objected to the country’s new austerity deal ...

Papademos may end up a PM without any Ms.

Five have already resigned. No need to "eject" them.

poic wrote:

I want to make clear that I always use a tiny fist of fury PERIOD

don't have

Sneering cat?

CalculatedRisk wrote:

Business as usual.

:Apu_at_the_Qwik-E_Mart: icon needed.

Galoshes on the ground from here
Nonetheless, the harsh realities of the austerity programs and unemployment do not make me optimistic. Unemployment in Greece is over 20% and estimated at 21-22% depending on the source. For the young, it is a bit above 50% I think. Portugal is heading there. The recent measures to cut the minimum wage in Greece to something like 590 euros (net) a month means much more suffering. Two young friends (late 20s) have jobs. Their combined monthly incomes are 1200 euros cut from over 1800. Both are university graduates with advanced degrees. Both have been posted to different places, and neither is where they live regularly with either of their families or in an apartment owned outright by the male’s parents in Thessaloniki. Thus, they have to rent two places and pay for the travel costs of occasional visits. She is a teacher, and he is a meteorologist with the state bureaucracy.

Another friend, in her late 40s, was posted about 2 hours away from her last posting here in Thessaloniki as a teacher; here she owns her apartment outright, after she and her husbands spent a number of years teaching in the Middle East. He is still there, and without his income, they would be destitute. She receives 900 euros a month. It costs her 60 euros for the weekly commute by car for gas and tolls to her new posting in a mountain village and 380 a month for her monthly rental there. Her children live with her mother here.

As some folks have explained, this lower minimum will have a knock on effect on all wages, since the minimum wage is the benchmark on which other wages are calculated.

I have followed a bit of the news today (Feb 8-10, 2012) here on the internet and on Greek tv. It is still something of a media circus in the Greek media with frequent updates. The latest seems to be that the Greek side has agreed to reduce the minimum wage by 20%. One report said it was to be frozen until 2015. One of the channels interviewed young folks, some of whom were working for free just to keep their hand in the labor market. Some reported receiving 329 euros a month or thereabouts. All of the figures given were below the poverty rate here for a single person. Some of the reports featured extended families with no one employed or with one pensioner trying to support their two children and several grandchildren.

But wait, isn't Papademos himself a chair-filler for the resigned PM?

At what point does the Birthplace of Democracy (TM) lose all pretense of having representative government? At what point does the gov't simply collapse?

Rob Dawg wrote:

don't have

YouTube - The CULT - 'Revolution' - 7" 1985
~splat

*although, my money is still on the 's

Rumors flying that Kim Jong Un assisinated running wild on the internets.

-that is all

Gary wrote:

At what point does the Birthplace of Democracy (TM) lose all pretense of having representative government? At what point does the gov't simply collapse?

When the Xerxes shows up - again.

Kim Jong Un was assasinated (per BBC)

@Haralambos

Thanks for that.

- NY Times

February 10, 2012

BRUSSELS — "At the same meeting where Greece’s latest economic plans were greeted with blunt skepticism, a television microphone accidentally recorded a very different exchange between a minister from Germany and a colleague from another bailout recipient, Portugal.

If Lisbon, which faces an austerity-driven economic slump similar to Greece’s, needed to ease its bailout terms, “we would be ready to do it,” said the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble.

“That’s much appreciated,” replied his counterpart from Portugal, Vitor Gaspar.

The conversation, broadcast on the private Portuguese network TVI, illustrated a stark fact as the euro zone’s debt crisis enters its third year: While Portugal, Ireland and other countries may be struggling, Greece has found itself in a category of its own — a nation the rest of Europe no longer trusts."

Kim Jong Un assisinated

There is just news. There is no good or bad. But that is good news!

Lurking Lawyer wrote:

Kim Jong Un was assasinated (per BBC)

Seems awfully early...

mp wrote:

@Haralambos
Thanks for that.

Second. Time for a default it sounds like - no benefit from staying in the EU at all.

CalculatedRisk wrote:

I suspect an agreement will be reached next week, the Greeks will get the next round of money for March

CR, it sounds like you've been involved in far too many negotiations over the course of your career.

I mean, I've seen the walkaway done many times, but the ministerial resignation thing is a bit new to me.

I thought it would be Iran - turns out to be North Korea.

fell flat on his face 10 yards short of the end-zone.

dryfly wrote:

Second. Time for a default it sounds like - no benefit from staying in the EU at all.

Yes. Yanis Varoufkis (Page not found « Yanis Varoufakis has a radio interview up today on the Australian BC. He has been saying that for over a year. Here is his teaser: "This is an interview on ABC Radio National’s Breakfast program. One of the rare occasions when I was afforded sufficient ‘room’to unfold arguments." I think it is about 15 minutes.

poic wrote:

fell flat on his face 10 yards short of the end-zone.

Nah, the clock just ran out.

From the Guardian...Schauble winks at Portugal, done with the Greeks.

" in an embarrassing admission captured on camera during a meeting in Brussels, Schäuble assured the Portuguese finance minister he would be prepared to adjust the terms of Portugal's €78bn bailout programme once the Greek situation was resolved – remarks viewed as incendiary given the tough line taken with Athens. "If there appears a necessity for an adjustment in the Portuguese programme we would be ready to do that," Schäuble said. Portugal's Vitor Gaspal replied: "That's much appreciated."

Re Kim Jong Un, this morning there was a thinly sourced rumor based on Chinese Twitter. Have not seen a scrap of respectable confirmation.

FWIW.

Sorry, here's the link on the Schauble comment to the Portuguese....

Greece crisis reaches boiling point as Athens asks if it can stay in the euro | World news | The Guardian

If KD does a post on Kim still being alive than put a fork in him, he's 10 feet underground.

mp wrote:

Unlike our host, you and I seem to agree that Greece isn't going to make it.

I am not sure our host thinks they are 'going to make it' - but that doesn't mean there won't be a whole lot more 'agreements'.

Agreement ≠ Make It.

rosethorn wrote:

"The devil's in the details," says Ron Glancz, chairman of law firm Venable LLP's Financial Services Group. "Until you see the document you're never quite sure what your rights are."

True, though apparently there is a document called the constitution somewhere. I've seen it, and I'm still not sure what my rights are....

:KD:

Instead, there are a series of nearly-complete documents that will be attached to a consent judgment eventually filed with the court.

So the betting still open on which deal gets reached first?

On more important matters than Greece and Kim-uh (or deux or trois) and Generalissimo Franco, a purple squirrel has been made captive, then freed, perhaps by Navy Seals. The color has nothing to do with fracking chemicals, by the way.

Pa. couple: We captured purple squirrel, freed it - US news - Environment - msnbc.com

mp wrote:

Personally, I think the German strategy is to force them to resign from the euro because, under the treaty, they can't force the Greeks out.

This latest demand, the 325 million, is proof positive to me.

If Greece goes it'll blow a giant hole in the German banking system. the 325mm is Germany putting their thumb on Greece's crooked scale.

CR can't fathom that this situation may actually go badly south.

I found the perfect Valentine's Card for Sebastian.

QE VALENTINE 2012 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Rickkk wrote:

“The amount of bribery merchants have to offer to high-level officials in order to survive keeps rising,” Jong-nam told Japanese journalist Yoji Gomi by e-mail.

Bribe inflation is the worst -- it's like a silent tax on the unscrupulous.

The elder brother of North Korea’s new leader says bribery and corruption will be the undoing of a country ruled by an inexperienced young man, e-mails published yesterday said. Kim Jong-nam, the half brother of Kim Jong-un, who took control of the hermit state after the death of their father late last year, said corruption was so rampant that the country’s political system would not

Very Syriana.

JP wrote:

I mean, I've seen the walkaway done many times, but the ministerial resignation thing is a bit new to me.

Pretty simple really, what's going on is not an arms length negotiation.

Greece 2012 budget deficit: 10% of GDP
US 2012 budget deficit: 8.5% of GDP

Difference? We control our own printing press.

Vonbek777 wrote:

There were some very favorable signs in the last two weeks that the new Dear Leader and the South Koreans were making baby steps toward reunification.

NK was moving more tanks and troops nearer the border ? That's about the only way the entrenched PTB in the North would want to give up power. There's an entourage that's doing quite nicely under the current regime.
~splat

nova wrote:

The CIA recruited a bunch of Greek military and political types who were right wingers within a couple years of the end of the war. It was part of the contain the commies plan.

It was kind of understandable in realpolitik terms. Considering how successful the Soviets had been in capturing most of eastern Europe as WW2 booty. Clashes of ideology result in strange bedfellows.
~splat

poic wrote on Fri, 2/10/2012 - 1:26 pm
"Difference? We control our own printing press. "
They're also at a debt-to-gdp ratio of 160%.

What is our combined state and federal ratio for a fair comparison?

Athenian democracy had some tricks not used presently that could be helpful.

Ostracism would be one.

Of course you are.

was speaking with a whimper today

Gold falls on uncertainty over Greek bailout
| Reuters

nova wrote:

Scone,

The CIA recruited a bunch of Greek military and political types who were right wingers within a couple years of the end of the war. It was part of the contain the commies plan.

Yes, I'm aware. My father was one of the guys who trained their guys on electronics, weapons, avionics, etc. (After first teaching them basic math.) I did my senior thesis on the Mossadeq disaster and was able to make the Kermit connection, but I didn't find the smoking gun. Daddy went off on these missions many times when I was a kid. Since he didn't talk about it much, I sort of pieced together some clues long after the fact. I'll never know the whole story, since he's dead now.

RockyR wrote:

CR can't fathom that this situation may actually go badly south.

I have this observation. 99% of the time it's just posturing, face saving and other kabuki theater. That lulls people, even the direct players into a false sense of security.

10 Greece debt deal soon
20 Greece Update. Deal expected next week.
30 Go to 10

lawyerliz wrote:

Athenian democracy had some tricks not used presently that could be helpful.

Ostracism would be one.

Yes, and another would be government service by lot (sortition is one term for it I think) among the citizens. I think it would produce a parliament much more representative of the population if not actually representing the people due to a vote.

Merkel was overheard yelling this today.

"Trinken sie idioten hemlock!"

You could have an IQ test and anyone over 100 could be chosen.

He was never ostracised.

And he refused to run away.

lawyerliz wrote:

You could have an IQ test and anyone over 100 could be chosen.

what if it came back a null resultset?

dryfly wrote:

Can't afford drones - not until the next dispersal.

Drones will be available for both sides...

"Time to lay in the bed you made, Greece, Germany and France. Karma. "

Photo Gallery: Anti-German Sentiment on the Rise in Greece - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Greeks equating Germany and austerity with you know what.

He didn't draw the uniforms correctly

Gary wrote:

At what point does the gov't simply collapse?

Haralambos wrote:

Yes, and another would be government service by lot (sortition is one term for it I think) among the citizens. I think it would produce a parliament much more representative of the population if not actually representing the people due to a vote.

You might be on to something here--it could work like jury selection does in the US, with prospective jurors selected by lot and then passed through a screening process to determine the jury. Instead of asking questions about the death penalty and whether you've ever worked for an insurance company, they could ask a series of questions designed to pick out the 12 Greeks willing to follow the diktats of the troika.

Wait, you wanted a representative parliament?

lawyerliz wrote:

You could have an IQ test and anyone over 100 could be chosen.

Since 100 is unfair to those under 100, now 20 is 100. As proclaimed by People for the Ethical Treatment of People Who Do Not Score Well on IQ Tests. Or MONKEYIQ.

lawyerliz wrote:

You could have an IQ test and anyone over 100 could be chosen.

and those under 100 could run for the senate !
~splat

Updating my gvmt debt / GDP chart to include trust funds as debt:

Graph: (Total Credit Market Debt Owed by Domestic Nonfinancial Sectors - Federal Government (FGTCMDODNS)+Total Credit Market Debt Owed by Domestic Nonfinancial Sectors - State and Local Governments (SLGTCMDODNS)+Federal Debt Held by Agencies & Trusts

Comrade Gibbon wrote:

That lulls people, even the direct players into a false sense of security.

It's all fun and games until someone loses a Lehman.

Not to belittle monkeys, those fleas infested scourages of the jungle, but monkeys are dumb. I don't want a monkey balancing my budget.

Rickkk wrote:

"Ten-year Army veteran Jerry Miller of Brevard County, Florida, has been declared deceased by the U.S. Veterans Administration four times in the span of less than two years..."

??
~splat

Graph: (Total Credit Market Debt Owed by Domestic Nonfinancial Sectors - Federal Government (FGTCMDODNS)+Total Credit Market Debt Owed by Domestic Nonfinancial Sectors - State and Local Governments (SLGTCMDODNS))/Gross Domestic Product, 1 Decimal (GDP) -  

Redraw the graph using the formula (b/a)

Rickkk wrote:

Fed's Secret Sale Of AIG Assets To Goldman Criticized As 'Un-American'

Au contraire, that is the New America. The GWB Patriot Act America. It's all national security people.

lawyerliz wrote:

He got a notice that his relatives had to pay back the 90k sent out and cashed, after he'd "died".

Why do they have to pay it back? Nobody else in America has to pay anything back.

Blackhalo wrote on Fri, 2/10/2012 - 1:50 pm (in reply to...)
Comrade Gibbon wrote:
That lulls people, even the direct players into a false sense of security.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a Lehman.

Hey BofA. I think there's a little Lehman stuck under the front of this zombie bank bus. Could you step out and take look? There's a good fellow.

Elvis wrote:

Why do they have to pay it back? Nobody else in America has to pay anything back.

It's called clawback for the 99%...

Cinco-X wrote:

"Isn't that where Kruggles wants to take us?"

My read is that his targets depend on the economic environment.

"Isn't that where Kruggles wants to take us? "

I'm thinking of voting Republican this coming election. They've got a plan to default us much faster. It'll be a lot more drawn out if we go the Democrat route.

steelhead quoted:

Elvis wrote:
"Why do they have to pay it back? Nobody else in America has to pay anything back.
It's called clawback for the 99%..."

It's a shame, they are trying to financially screw over Canadian vets with injuries as well.

poic wrote:

I'm thinking of voting Republican this coming election. They've got a plan to default us much faster. It'll be a lot more drawn out if we go the Democrat route.

I'm voting 3rd party for Rocky Anderson, former mayor of SLC, who is running on the Liberty Party ticket (write in if necessary).

no bank failures tonight

too much bad juju

Speed quoted:

This would make the Greek economy “euroized”

Sounds painful....

Cinco-X wrote:

"Sounds painful...."

..without lubrication.

you want cover?

how about a massive asteroid whacking into the Earth, or a worldwide 9.0 quake spanning all seven continents, or maybe you'd prefer a massive tsunami swamping every land mass in its path hundreds of miles inland

or maybe something a bit less severe

Speed wrote:

Seems like a viable plan - except for the Float part. Why float from day one? If allowed to float, why not let it float within a range to prevent a run?

A range will cause a run - if the only way the state can exchange is by printing - then the real exchange rate is on the street not the forex.

volker the viking wrote:

you want cover?

how about a massive asteroid whacking into the Earth, or a worldwide 9.0 quake spanning all seven continents, or maybe you'd prefer a massive tsunami swamping every land mass in its path hundreds of miles inland

or maybe something a bit less severe

I have always liked your LA common sense..

and unflagging optimism

volker the viking wrote:

or maybe something a bit less severe

Maybe the death of a a Kardasian is all we need. That's big news.

Rickkk wrote:

"To a Greek boy, that is a rite of passage."

Bacha bazi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...oddly enough, these same people want to destroy us for being infidels...

Rob Dawg wrote:

First hint of New Drachma and the deposits empty out.

Real capital controls - like slamming the doors on the bank shut then holiday - will be the first hint of New Drachma - not the reverse.

dryfly, oil is done in dollars, or else the offender is squashed like a bug

dollars, convert your dog ass whatever you call it into dollars, then you can settle the trade

Speed wrote:

Seems like a viable plan - except for the Float part. Why float from day one? If allowed to float, why not let it float within a range to prevent a run?

Not viable. Capital flight is already occurring(mostly happened.) At this point most companies(MNC or otherwise) are doing nightly sweeps from local accounts, only transferring enough back in for payroll. Drachma float from 340 would make a moonshot look like a water rocket.

Needed capital controls 2 years ago to even think of this plan.

"In anticipation of this Greek crisis, I took all my money out of Greek banks and put it in Syrian banks for safe keeping. "

Looks like you're not in the over 100 IQ group lawyerliz was talking about upthread.

Cinco-X wrote:

...oddly enough, these same people want to destroy us for being infidels..."

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The anti-communist rebels garnered support from the United States. Former CIA director and previous Secretary of Defense Robert Gates wrote in his memoirs From the Shadows that the U.S. intelligence services began to provide financial aid to the rebel factions in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet deployment.

In a 1998 interview[45] with the French newsmagazine Le Nouvel Observateur, Zbigniew Brzezinski was quoted as having said: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would... That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War...The Afghan Mujahideen were supported by a number of other countries, with the US and Saudi Arabia offering the greatest financial support."

km4 wrote:

Read more: The Afghanistan Report the Pentagon Doesn't Want You to Read | Michael Hastings | Rolling Stone

Shades of Vietnam War!

Responding to the offensive, Westmoreland led a successful campaign which defeated the Viet Cong. Despite this, the damage had been done as Westmoreland's optimistic reports about the war's course were discredited by North Vietnam's ability to mount such a large-scale campaign. In June 1968, Westmoreland was replaced by General Creighton Abrams. During his tenure in Vietnam, Westmoreland had sought to win a battle of attrition with the North Vietnamese, however he was never able to force the enemy to abandon a guerilla-style of warfare which repeatedly left his own forces at a disadvantage.

William Westmoreland - Vietnam War General William Westmoreland

there's are 100's of billions of Greek money in Swiss accounts, all from the wealthy, non taxed. No matter, they are part of the club.

Time to get on the gerbil wheel and then take a few spins in the hampster ball around the neighborhood. It can be startling, though, when the pack of wild dogs starts chasing me. But, that is why I bring a couple of hobbled cats. Those dogs quickly lose interest in me. It is not known by most that cat taste like Ho Hos to wild dogs. Later.

And what are these Swiss banks invested in? Florida mtges?

The all seasons Med. port is irreplaceable, and a geopolitical necessity.

Yup. The article actually does state military and economic benefits are at risk if there is a power change.

gruntled quoted:

"...however he was never able to force the enemy to abandon a guerilla-style of warfare which repeatedly left his own forces at a disadvantage."

"There was one exception to the rule that all our foes have committed the Decadence Assumption. Ho Chi Minh never underestimated America. His avowed hero was George Washington and he remained in awe of the U.S., all his life. He remains the only enemy leader who ever defeated us at war, and then only because our hubris (not decadence) got the better of us."

I guess we'll have to wait until Monday to resume our regularly scheduled bull market.

Rickkk wrote:

"There was one exception to the rule that all our foes have committed the Decadence Assumption. Ho Chi Minh never underestimated America. His avowed hero was George Washington and he remained in awe of the U.S., all his life. He remains the only enemy leader who ever defeated us at war, and then only because our hubris (not decadence) got the better of us."

1962 -- Francis Gary Powers, a CIA pilot allows both himself & his super-secret airplane to be captured by the Russians, then confesses everything before a Soviet court. Exchanged for reputed Soviet master spy Rudolf Abel

Rickkk wrote:

Ho Chi Minh ..... remains the only enemy leader who ever defeated us at war, and then only because our hubris (not decadence) got the better of us."

The Canadians tell a different story....

steelhead wrote:

Until Saudi Arabia has its "Arab Spring"

That would cause some serious sphincter tightening in the West.
~splat

adornosghost wrote:

1962 -- Francis Gary Powers, a CIA pilot allows both himself & his super-secret airplane to be captured by the Russians,"

Francis Gary Powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

".... an American pilot whose Central Intelligence Agency[1] U-2 spy plane was shot down while flying a reconnaissance mission over Soviet Union airspace, causing the 1960 U-2 incident."

"In 2010, CIA documents were released indicating that "top US officials never believed Powers’ account of his fateful flight because it appeared to be directly contradicted by a report from the National Security Agency, the clandestine US network of codebreakers and listening posts. The NSA report remains classified, possibly to spare the blushes of its authors.

For it is now possible to piece together what really happened high over Sverdlovsk on May 1, 1960, and to understand why America’s most secretive intelligence agency got it so wrong".[7] According to the article cited, the still classified NSA report is incorrect based on the CIA documents that were declassified which show that Powers' account of being shot down at altitude was accurate."

from the report

In order for the current crop of excellent junior Army leaders to become the next generations’ senior Army leaders – and continue to demonstrate the same adherence to honor and integrity – changes must be made and made quickly of today’s senior cohort. **I’ve lost count of the number of truly promising and intelligent leaders who have gotten out of the service at the mid-level because they could not stomach the mendacity at the top. ** If we can change the culture at the top, however, the future for our Armed Forces and our country can once again be very bright.

Mendacity is pervasive in Wash DC Wall St and the military

This is right

Actually, we really haven't won one since WWII--

Grenada!

Rob Dawg wrote:

Actually, we really haven't won one since WWII--

Grenada!

Panama!

“It goes without saying that whoever disagrees and does not vote for the new program cannot stay in the government,”

That should disqualify at least 99 percent of all Greeks.

Canada!

Rickkk wrote:

Chile.

Heck! Nicaragua (and Iran)....back when Ike was runnin' the show...

Outsider wrote:

Clint Eastwood backs Simpson-Bowles - Feb. 10, 2012
He does NOT look 81.

1. If 81 no one is touching his entitlements
2. He can afford to go without them

It would be more credible if also said - raise my taxes a bunch to offset for bottom rungs who can't afford to have their entitlements cut.

poic wrote on Fri, 2/10/2012 - 2:33 pm
Canada!

Depends. What's the point spread?

Cinco-X wrote:

Heck! Nicaragua (and Iran)....back when Ike was runnin' the show...

If you want to include CIA operations, the list would be endless--- Post WWII, Iran first, then Guatemala, Indonesia, and haven't stopped yet.

Rob Dawg wrote:

How long before we are forced by events to add Mexico to the list?

El Anschlus is well underway - and going as planned.

adornosghost wrote:

A failed State.

US or Mexico?

I'll demonstrate how this pattern of overt and substantive deception has become a hallmark of many of America’s most senior military leaders in Afghanistan. As mentioned earlier in this report, were I able to share the classified reports the gulf between what some of our leaders have said in public and what they know behind the scenes would be dramatic. Nevertheless, even with what I’m about to provide from open source material the gulf will still be clearly evident. In the following subsections, I'll cover: Deception at the Strategic Level

http://www1.rollingstone.com/extras/RS_REPORT.pdf

adornosghost wrote:

If you want to include CIA operations, the list would be endless--- Post WWII, Iran first, then Guatemala, Indonesia, and haven't stopped yet.

Start with the OSS in WWII.

Office of Strategic Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

km4 wrote:

I'll demonstrate how this pattern of overt and substantive deception has become a hallmark of many of America’s most senior military leaders in Afghanistan.

Yes...this makes the shenanigans during the Johnson administration look tame...

Are you sure about that?

burnside is better at explaining this, but even tho they thought they were cutting loose, the banks tied them in anyway, in the end.

robj wrote:

Pritchard gives it until April

I don't see his vote on sig's HCN prediction, so until then it doesn't count.

poic wrote:

"Canada!"

Maurice Richard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Richard was an outstanding scorer. While he had a good fore-hand and back-hand shot, he was not considered to have the greatest shot or accuracy. Richard made up for it in desire and other skills to become the outstanding goal-scorer of his time. He had excellent stick-handling skills, was fast on his skates, and strong. He used those abilities to outmaneuver opponents. He was well-known for frightening opponents with his stare.

Richard's fighting ability (he had taken boxing in school) meant that most players did not want to get into fights with him."

(No candy-ass helmets or visors back then)

Found guilty by Plato.
::
The Socratic Problem (so called), or Another Historical Jesus

The Socratic problem is a rat's nest of complexities arising from the fact that various people wrote about Socrates whose accounts differ in crucial respects, leaving us to wonder which, if any, are accurate representations of the historical Socrates. “There is, and always will be, a ‘Socratic problem’. This is inevitable,” said Guthrie (1969, 6), looking back on a gnarled history between ancient and contemporary times that is narrated in detail by Press (1996), but barely touched on below. The difficulties are increased because all those who knew and wrote about Socrates lived before any standardization of modern categories of, or sensibilities about, what constitutes historical accuracy or poetic license....

One thing is certain about the historical Socrates: even among those who knew him in life, there was profound disagreement about what his actual views and methods were. Apart from the three primary sources below, there were those called ‘minor Socratics’, not for the quality of their work but because so little or none of it is extant, about whose view of Socrates we shall probably never know much.[2] After Socrates' death, the tradition became even more disparate.
[...]
2.1 Three primary sources: Aristophanes, Xenophon, and Plato
Aristophanes (±450-±386)
Our earliest extant source—and the only one who can claim to have known Socrates in his early years—is the playwright Aristophanes. His comedy, Clouds, was produced in 423 when the other two extant sources, Xenophon and Plato, were infants....

Xenophon (±425-±386)
Another source for the historical Socrates is the soldier-historian, Xenophon. Xenophon says explicitly of Socrates, “I was never acquainted with anyone who took greater care to find out what each of his companions knew” (Memorabilia 4.7.1); and Plato corroborates Xenophon's statement by illustrating throughout his [Xenophon's] dialogues Socrates' adjustment of the level and type of his questions to the particular individuals with whom he talked....

Plato (424/3–347)
Philosophers have usually privileged [!] the account of Socrates given by their fellow philosopher, Plato. Plato was about twenty-five when Socrates was tried and executed, and had probably [!] known the old man most of his life [since Aristophane's "probably" invented the character].

Socrates
::

The problem was to find a non-circular way to determine which dialogues were early. The only secure piece of information about the order of Plato's dialogues available from ancient times was that Republic was written before Laws; and that was not nearly enough information to support a full-fledged chronology of dates of composition, especially because so many dialogues were assumed to have been composed before Republic. Two important attempts to introduce appropriate criteria followed. (c1) Stylometrics (the measument of aspects of Plato's conscious and unconscious writing style) [!] contributed hundreds of articles purporting to show which dialogues were early.

Supplement to Socrates >> Early Attempts to Solve the Socratic Problem
::
HCN Gorgias

Plato describes the scene --with preposterous precisssssion-- through the narrative voice of the fictional character Phaedo. "Phaed. Of native Athenians there were, besides Apollodorus, Critobulus and his father Crito, Hermogenes, Epigenes, Aeschines, and Antisthenes; likewise Ctesippus of the deme of Paeania, Menexenus, and some others; but Plato, if I am not mistaken, was ill.")
HCN Phaedo
::
All of which preceeds Glorious Roman Empire in the annals of neandertal allele-bearing uh civilization.

km4 wrote:

how could such an extensive, pervasive, and long-running series of deceptive statements have gone unnoticed by virtually the entire country?

Study what happens to whistle-blowers.

Rickkk wrote:

Study what happens to whistle-blowers.

I got confused about whether the topic was Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam since the quote (and outrage) seemed to apply so brilliantly to all. You can add Pakistan, but they're an "ally" with whom we're not at war. I think.

Rickkk wrote:

how could such an extensive, pervasive, and long-running series of deceptive statements have gone unnoticed by virtually the entire country?

Study what happens to whistle-blowers.

Keep your head down and stay employed. We worship heroes in this country because, if you see them as different that ordinary people, you have an out against trying to be one.

I did know one whistler-blower who did all right after, but he had something to sell to people who were facing the situation he was warning against. Never worked in his industry again, though.

page 84 conclusion

The United States, along with over 40 NATO and other allied nations, possess the most
sophisticated, powerful, and technologically advanced military force that has ever hit the field of combat…..And for almost 10 years we have pitted this unbelievable and unprecedented capability against:

A bunch of dudes in bed sheets and flip-flops

But before anyone else underestimates these gentlemen….

Whatever the case, as this report has shown conclusively, despite what our senior defense leaders say in public, the military surge failed to reduce the insurgency, and with the drawdown in full swing, our future efforts are virtually certain to likewise fail. Our consistent statements to the contrary serve only to further diminish our credibility. Without a change in our strategy in the field and a return to honest and frank public statements by our leaders, the likelihood of the United States Armed Forces suffering an eventual defeat in Afghanistan is very high.

I will end this report by answering a question many have asked me: why write this report when you know you’re going to get flamed by the Army brass? Honestly, after all I’ve seen over the past decade and a half, I felt a moral obligation to do so. I believe that with knowledge comes responsibility; I knew too much to remain silent….

To reiterate: with knowledge comes responsibility…

I had no choice but to act.

JBR wrote:

How about both?

Really - that is why Greece has to make THE BANKERS decide. You want us to keep paying something? Then make it possible to do so - or we go it alone even if it means pay go.

Mary wrote:

"The Socratic Problem (so called)"

"By all means marry: If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."

Socrates, (469 BC - 399 BC) Greek Philosopher

Dryfly wrote:

"Dollars are still the most common medium of exchange but by no means the only one. Even for oil. Money is completely fungible - electronic - and virtually instantaneous. As long as it trades - is relatively stable - its good as gold."

Not quite... Gold in 2000 $280/oz. Oil $27.5/barrel or 10 barrels per oz. of gold
Gold today $1725 and oil $99 or 17 barrels per oz. of gold.

So oil is 60% cheaper in gold and 360% more expensive in dollars.

Rickkk wrote:

Socrates

Also by the same author:

Beauty is the bait which with delight allures man to enlarge his kind.

and

As to marriage or celibacy, let a man take which course he will, he will be sure to repent.

No wonder they forced him to drink hemlock; He was one funny dude.

BOOYAH!

Anon2 wrote:

Not quite... Gold in 2000 $280/oz. Oil $27.5/barrel or 10 barrels per oz. of gold
Gold today $1725 and oil $99 or 17 barrels per oz. of gold.
So oil is 60% cheaper in gold and 360% more expensive in dollars.

The transactions are much shorter time frame than that - you don't contract for oil in 2000 and take delivery 2012. More like months or even weeks. And even then exchange rates and commodity prices are often hedged [legitimate use of options & futures].

I have a friend whose brother is a banker in the UAE - it is one of the reasons it is rapidly becoming one of the largest banking centers - facilitating these kinds of trades.

Rickkk wrote:

Dan Quayle (1947 - )

actually, Dan was a very effective US Senator. let's be fair... he just needed a little more work at the Actors Studio.
Bush 41 should have groomed him instead of throwing him under the train. GHWB brought him on to the world stage
and should have understood his role as stage manager... he needed to play Colonel Tom Parker.
...
Dan is not stupid by any means... he's the best golfer ever in the WH.

dryfly wrote:

The way Iceland got squeezed was they now have to live off their own produce - tourism, geothermal energy [and products produced from it] and fisheries.

Ultimately that's what they would eventually have to do anyway...their borrowing spree just put it off for a bit and allowed some of them to acquire toys in the interim...

CalculatedRisk quoted:

"Stock Market News, Business News, Financial, Earnings, World Market News and Information - CNBC.com 
Greek Cabinet Approves Reform Bill; Parliament Expected to Vote on Sunday"

The operation was a success, but the patient died.

BBC News - Greece bailout: Cabinet approves draft bill for fresh cuts

10 February 2012 Last updated at 17:59 ET

"The draft bill must now be passed by the Greek parliament and approved by European finance ministers. Five ministers have resigned from the government over the issue, with one junior party in the coalition saying the demands were "humiliating".

Unions began a 48-hour strike on Friday with protesters clashing with police.

Prime Minister Lucas Papademos has warned the country faces "uncontrolled economic chaos" if it fails to agree spending cuts and defaults on its debts."

In other words, the IMF showed up and ruined Iceland's party.

Outsider wrote:

From what I understand, it involved more than just repercussions. I think Yves talks about it here.

She answers herself here:

The answer will depend largely on the degree to which governments back the claims of creditors. The legal definition of how much can be squeezed out is becoming a political issue pulling national governments, the IMF, ECB and other financial agencies into a conflict pitting banks, vulture funds and debt-strapped populations against each other.

The answer was not much. The voters have not let the Icelandic gov't beat on their own people - that has been determined a number of times at ballot boxes already.

Same thing happened in Argentina - the voters would not sanction their gov't to crush their own people.

So they went through an extended period where they had to live off their own production and pay for imports with hard money they received from exports.

They don't have a lot to trade do they? My guess is Greece would become the cheapest place to vacation on Earth for awhile - if you didn't count the security cost.

I don't think they remain sufficiently functional to support a tourist trade. Electricity, fuel, certain foods shortages. And if you are northern European just forget it.

outsider - the IMF is nothing about international settlements..its about having a stake in the game to suck a dieing country to repay banks and bond holders. This of course allows the free flow of money to fund deficit spending across all nations.

Rob Dawg wrote:

I don't think they remain sufficiently functional to support a tourist trade. Electricity, fuel, certain foods shortages. And if you are northern European just forget it.

Sounds like Mexico. What's not to like?

dryfly wrote:

She answers herself here:....

The answer was not much. The voters have not let the Icelandic gov't beat on their own people - that has been determined a number of times at ballot boxes already.
Same thing happened in Argentina - the voters would not sanction their gov't to crush their own people.

So they went through an extended period where they had to live off their own production and pay for imports with hard money they received from exports.

Sounds suspiciously like a "win"...

Mary quoted:

Plato's cave analogy was as good as it got."

YouTube - The Cave: An Adaptation of Plato's Allegory in Clay

dryfly wrote:

Sounds like Mexico. What's not to like?

Hmm.. could Greece become the narco-capital of the Eurozone ?
~splat

"Outsider wrote on Fri, 2/10/2012 - 3:12 pm

reply

:gotta run: "

Whewww! For a second there I read that as :got the runs:

Two banks down...

PR-18-2012 First Merchants Bank, National Association, Muncie, Indiana, Assumes All of the Deposits of SCB Bank, Shelbyville, Indiana

PR-17-2012 Barrington Bank & Trust Company, National Association, Barrington, Illinois, Assumes All of the Deposits of Charter National Bank and Trust, Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Cinco-X wrote:

minimal loss of life (of people we know) have muted the impact of these wars on our society...

big element - No Draft.
....
remember the people who join up do so voluntarily. if they get killed in war it's sad but not tragic, it's part of the deal...

so, greece is saved?

Souvlaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tzatziki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outsider wrote:

So unpayably high debts are kept on the books, at transfer prices that afford a windfall to financial predators, dooming debtors to a decade or more of negative equity.

On the books isn't the same as 'being paid'... major distinction.

Valentine's Day destroyed by climate change? - latimes.com